Feb
16

One overhead kick, does not a man make

By

So, a single Mongoose kick later and Wayne Rooney is once again the Prince of Salford.

Contract?  What contract.  Scandal?  What scandal.

Although it now seems unthinkable, Rooney’s form had been such that there was more than a murmuring (amongst United fans and media commentators alike) that he no longer warranted an automatic starting place.

His somewhat lethargic performances, combined with the resurgence of Dimitar Berbatov and the ever increasing contribution of young Mexican sensation Javier Hernández, had many suggesting that the more exotic partnership may actually represent Sir Alex Ferguson’s most potent strike force.

Berbatov’s contribution this campaign this season has been such that I read numerous media previews in the days leading up to the game that listed the mercurial Bulgarian as one of the fixtures “key players”.

From a tactical perspective, there was great intrigue as to whether Sir Alex would stick with a traditional 4-4-2 (which he strongly favours at Old Trafford) or whether he would opt for his “big game” 4-5-1 formation.

One thing that the majority of the media didn’t foresee was Sir Alex Ferguson opting for the robust 4-5-1 setup, but leaving Berbatov out of the side and using Rooney as the focal point of the attack.

After all, one player is in the form of his life, while the other is supposedly having the worst campaign of his career.  Right?

Well not quite.  The divergence in contributions of Messrs Rooney and Berbatov this season have been grossly overstated by the UK media – and as a result equally overdone by both the football following masses and subsequently the betting industry.

Once you scratch below the surface, it is actually a lot less sinister.


The small print

Before I get into why I think this, a couple of quick points of note:

  • Due to data constraints, the following analysis is based on English Premier League games only and does not consider Cup or European competition;
  • I am well aware that assists are, for the want of a better word, a crap statistic to assess a player by.  Goals are only marginally better.  Penalties are even worse, and they are not stripped out for this analysis.  They are only two elements of possibly forty different contribution types you would want to consider – see Football Manager; and
  • Each individual player’s contribution is, in part, dependent on the contribution of his or her fellow team members’ contributions – and therefore their contributions must always be considered as a whole rather than independently.

That’s enough small print.  You get the gist.


The Rooney/Berbatov situation

After a somewhat underwhelming first two years at Manchester United, Dimitar Berbatov has scored 19 goals in 22 Premier League games so far this season and is currently considered a candidate for a number of Player of the Year awards.

In contrast, after a mesmeric 2009/10 season in which he scored 26 Premier League goals in only 34 appearances, Wayne Rooney appears to have struggled in 2010/11, scoring only 5 goals in 16 appearances to date.

Bicycle kicks aside, he has been below par and up until Saturday his annual highlights consisted of an ill-advised transfer request, a contentious contract extension, a trip to Dubai to eat pizza and drink beer and a subsequent trip to Portland to burn them off again.

However, even the staunchest anti-Rooney supporters would accept that given Rooney has missed a number of games during the season as a result of injuries and personal issues, a direct comparison using counting statistics does not provide a fair like-for-like comparison.

Therefore the first important before carrying out any season-to-season comparison is to create rate bases statistics which allow us to analyse each players “per minute” contribution.

Let’s have a look at some lovely numbers.


The data

The data below shows each players minutes, goals and “direct assists” for the last five Premier league season and the corresponding rate metrics.


Dimitar Berbatov – Basic attacking statistics

Season

Minutes

Goals

Assists

G&A

Min per G

Min per A

Min per G&A

2006/07

2715

12

11

23

226

247

118

2007/08

2989

15

11

26

199

272

115

2008/09

2564

9

10

19

285

256

135

2009/10

2094

12

6

18

175

349

116

2010/11

1802

19

2

21

95

901

86


Just to clarify, the first two seasons above are from Berbatov’s time at Spurs, not Manchester United.

I was very impressed at how consistent Berbatov has been throughout his EPL career, contributing a goal or assist every circa 120 minutes of playing time.  The tightness of the distribution may surprise you – but is a more common pattern than you would first think.

Berbatov suffered a small dip in productivity on shifting to Man United in 2008/09 – which is common for players transferring teams.  The change of environment and employer can impact a footballer exactly as it can any other individual, in any other industry.  Some adapt more quickly than others – it all comes down to the individual.

However, 2010/11 has seen a huge shift in Berbatov’s number of goals.  He is now scoring at a goal every 90 minutes clip versus an EPL career average of almost 220 mins per goal (“mpg”).

However, as a result of his changing role within United’s wider structure (which will be discussed later) you may be shocked to see that his corresponding assist rate has dropped through the floor.  That is not a typo.  Dimitar Berbatov he has been credited with only two direct assists all season.  Two!

These two trends can be seen on the chart below.


Dimitar Berbatov – Goal and assist rates


Berbatov has no doubt shown a great increase in output this season, which could be attributed to a number of things – his changing role within the team, the absence and reduced contribution from Rooney, his personal circumstances and motivation, good man management etc.

It should also be noted that there has also been an unusual trend to his goals through the season, having scored eleven goals in just three fixtures.

For example, had Sir Alex Ferguson chosen not to select Berbatov for what was a reasonably straightforward home tie against Blackburn Rovers (in which he scored 5 goals) then his minutes per goal or assist metric would increase up to circa 105 – much closer to his historic averages.

This is the nature of the beast when using such small sample sizes.

Anyway, onto Monsieur Rooney…


Wayne Rooney – Basic attacking statistics

Season

Minutes

Goals

Assists

G&A

Min per G

Min per A

Min per G&A

2006/07

2715

14

12

26

194

226

104

2007/08

2989

12

13

25

249

230

120

2008/09

2564

12

7

19

214

366

135

2009/10

2094

26

6

32

81

349

65

2010/11

1322

5

10

15

264

132

88


Ah yes Mr Rooney.  A broken man, a shadow of his former self.  A man no longer fit to wear the shirt.

With only five goals to his name this season, he is on pace to score only ten goals this season, way down on that expected of him coming into the year.

However, his scoring rate of 264 mpg is not too far out of line with his 2006-2008 seasons – again small sample sizes are very dangerous.  Only one additional goal would have seen his rate close to his historic average of circa 200 mpg.

However, as we all know, many players contribute every time a team scores a goal – that much is obvious.


Wayne Rooney – Goal and assist rates


Having played only c. 1300 minutes this season Wayne Rooney has the joint third most assists (10) in the EPL – behind his teammate Nani (13).

However, his assist rate of 132 minutes per assist is the best in the entire league.

Not third, not second.  The best.

Better than Nani’s.  Better than Fabregas’.  Better than Van der Vaart’s.

That’s not bad for a fat lad completely out of touch is it?


Premier League 2010/11 – Assists per minute (min 5 assists)

Player

Minutes

Goals

Assists

Mins per Goal

Mins per Assist

Rooney

1322

5

10

264

132

Nani

1861

9

13

207

143

Walcott

1012

7

7

145

145

Arshavin

1591

5

11

318

145

Fabregas

1477

3

10

492

148

Van Persie

870

10

5

87

174

Johnson

1012

3

5

337

202

Brunt

2125

2

10

1063

213

Van der Vaart

1499

10

7

150

214

Giggs

1098

2

5

549

220

Lee

1569

2

7

785

224

Drogba

2053

10

9

205

228

Crouch

1477

2

6

739

246

Silva

1787

2

7

894

255

Baines

2340

2

9

1170

260

Carroll

1625

11

6

148

271

Albrighton

1431

4

5

358

286

Obinna

1435

3

5

478

287

Etherington

2041

4

7

510

292

Thomas

1784

3

6

595

297

Larsson

1843

1

6

1843

307

Chamakh

1536

7

5

219

307

Adam

2155

6

7

359

308

Milner

1654

1

5

1654

331

Gerrard

1690

4

5

423

338

Barton

2035

4

6

509

339

Young A

2062

4

6

516

344

MGP

2147

4

6

537

358

Piquionne

1803

6

5

301

361

Kuyt

1829

4

5

457

366

N’Zogbia

1972

4

5

493

394

Torres

2025

9

5

225

405

Tevez

2048

18

5

114

410

Jarvis

2123

2

5

1062

425

Gutierrez

2147

1

5

2147

429

Elmander

2262

9

5

251

452

Downing

2419

5

5

484

484


Observations

It should be noted here that Rooney‘s assist rate is half that of Spurs’ sensation Rafael Van der Vaart and that Arsenal’s player of the year in waiting, Samir Nasri, has been credited with only one direct assist all season.

Leyton Baines has chalked up nine direct assists from left back, which is a might fine effort, particularly given Everton’s struggles.  Tip of the cap.

And Robin Van Persie is absolutely on fire since coming back from injury.  He leads the league in goals per minute and is close to the top in assists as well.  If only he could stay fit, who knows what Arsenal can achieve.  Maybe we will find out tonight…

Off topic, although in this instance the combination of goals and assists is of some use to indicate a simplistic point, I think this data is already showing some severe weaknesses.  This is indicative of why I feel this data is totally useless as a value adding tool in the professional game.

Anyway, now let’s now have a look at United’s strike force combined:


Berbatov & Rooney combined – Basic attacking statistics

Season

Minutes

Goals

Assists

G&A

Min per G

Min per A

Min per G&A

2006/07

5430

26

23

49

209

236

111

2007/08

5978

27

24

51

221

249

117

2008/09

5128

21

17

38

244

302

135

2009/10

4188

38

12

50

110

349

84

2010/11

3124

24

12

36

130

260

87


As previously stated, the first two years are not really comparable data sets given that Berbatov was playing for Spurs at the time so they will be dismissed – bar noting that they look reasonably consistent with the numbers we would expect to see of two players of this ilk.

The key point of note here is simply how similar their combined goal involvement rates are – 84 mins per goal/assist in 2009/10 and now 87 mins per goal/assist in 2010/11.

You can’t really get much closer than that.


So what is actually going on here?

Each individual player obviously makes a contribution to the overall team’s performance.

However, the two individual contributions are materially dependent.  It is clear that although individually credited with subjective statistics such as goals, assists, passes tackles and clearances that each and every player is in some way involved in each and every event that occurs on a football field.

It is the nature of an invasion game.

Manchester United normally choose to use a 4-4-2 system in home games, with one out-and-out striker and one forward, and a 4-5-1 system in away games, using a loan target man and three deeper supporting attacking payers – normally two wingers with a third player in a slightly deeper role than you would find a traditional forward.

In 2009/10, until the time of his ankle injury in March, Manchester United predominantly used Wayne Rooney as the spearhead of either of these formations – resulting him in scoring a high number of goals and, in comparison to his early years at the club, recording a reduced number of assists.

Dimitar Berbatov, in a more limited role time wise, would most commonly play as the playmaking forward in home games – resulting in a reduced number of goals but a very high assist rate.

Entering 2010/11 with Wayne Rooney both injured and out of form, Berbatov was used as a traditional target man at the focal point of United’s attack in the Charity Shield against Chelsea  – and it was a great success.

And he has been there ever since, scoring bucket loads of goals – particularly against the weaker sides.

On his return, Wayne Rooney now had a “new” role in comparison to 2009/10 – which was actually to slip back into his “old” role as a forward, linking up play and providing for others.

As a consequence, you now see his goals somewhat suppressed but his assist rate increasing once again.

Its pretty simple when you look at it from the right angle way.


Some comparative data

The tables below show the same comparative statistics for Didier Drogba and Fernando Torres.

As top level strikers at comparable clubs, you will see many similarities in the numbers – particularly the rate statistics:


Didier Drogba – Basic attacking statistics

Season

Minutes

Goals

Assists

G&A

Min per G

Min per A

Min per G&A

2006/07

2946

20

4

24

147

737

123

2007/08

1525

8

6

14

191

254

109

2008/09

1550

5

4

9

310

388

172

2009/10

2771

29

13

42

96

213

66

2010/11

2048

10

9

19

194

216

102


Didier Drogba – Goal and assist rates


Observations

Didier Drogba’s game has developed considerably over his years at Chelsea.

Having been credited with only 14 assists in this first three seasons at the Bridge, he has chalked up 22 in the last season and a half, whilst still scoring in line with his historic average rate.


Fernando Torres – Basic attacking statistics – Liverpool career

Season

Minutes

Goals

Assists

G&A

Min per G

Min per A

Min per G&A

2007/08

2533

24

4

28

106

633

90

2008/09

1729

14

5

19

124

346

91

2009/10

1705

18

3

21

95

568

81

2010/11

1890

9

5

14

205

228

135


Fernando Torres – Goal and assist rates – Liverpool career


Observations

Fernando Torres has achieved an amazing level of goalscoring consistency throughout his Liverpool career – particularly given he has been playing in a lesser team and doesn’t get his statistics padded by penalties.

As he is the quintessential “finisher”, he does have a reduced assist rate  - but it is that goal rate that Chelsea have paid £50 million for.

However, the reason I believe they have made a poor investment decision is shown in the “minutes” column.  He is an injury prone asset with a high risk of breaking down completely within the next three years.

Most other top strikers would be looking to be on the pitch for 2500+ minutes in a season – something Torres seems incapable of managing in recent years.

You can only be a £50 million player when you are doing exactly that – playing.

When you aren’t, you are a £50 million sunk cost.


Update

Having been accused of “Man United bias” by a well respected BOTW follower, I thought I would clarify my points with respect to Fernando Torres and Wayne Rooney.

Firstly, this post was in no way an attempt to say that Wayne Rooney was in great touch and playing well.  Rooney has clearly been performing below his own very high standards since coming back from injury.  His touch has been a little rusty and his interplay with teammates not as crisp as in previous seasons.

I was simply explain the changing roles of Rooney and Berbatov within the United side and that, despite his struggles, Rooney has still been contributing to United goals at a comparable rate to previous seasons.

Two other things I most certainly wasn’t opining on were:


a) The possible current transfer value of Wayne Rooney; or

b) Whether or not Wayne Rooney was more/less/equally valuable as Fernando Torres.


What I did say, and that I am happy to stick by, is that I have material concerns for the ability of Fernando Torres to stay fit and play 80%+ of Chelsea’s games over the next five years.

The Spaniard, who as I pointed out has one of the most impressively consistent goals per minute ratio’s has suffered from a range of muscle injuries in recent years and I feel that they may impact his career on an ongoing basis.

About 25 years ago, Ryan Giggs suffered from a number of hamstring and groin related issues in the middle of his Manchester United career yet he has managed to continue to play at the top level until his late thirties.

However, to use Giggs’ own words, his solution for his muscle injuries was “to stop running flat out”.  I remember a quote from the Welshman from many years ago, in which he said he hadn’t attempted to run at full speed this side of 30.

I’m sorry to say Roman, that isn’t really a viable solution for a centre forward.


Pretty pictures

As ever, I thought I would draw some pictures to try an illustrate my point.


League games played by season – Peer Group

As this clearly shows, Fernando Torres has consistently played less games than Wayne Rooney and the world’s only undisputed £50 million footballers, Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, who have played 84% and 85%  of their respective sides league games over the last 4 years.

For completeness, Rooney has featured in 75% of Man United’s league games and Torres 68%.


League games played by season – Big names aged 23 – 26


This chart shows the comparable seasons for a handful of other big names strikers of recent years.

Again, you can see that Torres’ games played statistics are somewhat lower than all the others.

Major props to Thierry Henry who played 93% of Arsenal’s games over a four year stretch, missing only 10 games in total.

That said, the others were not that far behind particularly Alan Shearer (90%) and David Villa (88%).

Didier Drogba played in 82% of his sides games during the period.


League games played by season – Torres comparables


Now, please go easy on me and take this final comparison with a pinch of salt.

But here are a few other players that averaged 50 – 70% of their teams’ games from the ages 23 to 26.

After “great striker”, what is this second thing that springs to mind if I asked you for a common denominator for the group of Ronaldo, Robbie Fowler and Michael Owen?

I’m just sayin’…

.

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Comments

  1. Shonenknife says:

    Really interesting read – certainly makes you reconsider some face value thoughts.

  2. Sgodding says:

    Excellently written and thought out article – this is the sort of punditry I would be interested rather than the absolute tosh spewed by any of the ‘professional’ tv pundits!

  3. Poll says:

    Complete agree Sgodding, unfortunately most of them would probably be totally stumped by the numbers!
    Definitely seems to be an increase in “thinking” men brought in behind the scenes at some of the big clubs, but are they thinking about and analysing the right things?

  4. time tough says:

    Got your red tinted specs on for this piece Blez,

    As we are speculating, Torres needs just under 7 games this season to reach 2500 mins, Rooney has to play all remaining 12 games to reach 2402 mins. That will be two consecutive seasons in which Rooney will not have reached the magic 2500+ mins mark. Does that make Rooney an injury prone asset with a high risk of breaking down completely in the next three years whilst simutaneously providing proof that Torres is back to his best.

    Just as well you included the small print!

  5. Blez says:

    :-)

    Far from it TT!

    Making the 2500 mark this season would be a positive sign, but still represents a single season and not a consistent trend.

    And I think you’ll find I made no comment on the possible worth of Wayne Rooney.

    All I will say is there are only two footballers in the world I believe are worth £50 million – and Wayne isn’t one of them.

    Small print not needed on this point. There are plenty of weaknesses in the piece above, but I don’t think Torres’ injury record and associated risk is one of them…

    But as I respect your challenge and your great contributions here at BOTW, I have even put together a little addendum – now added above.

    Cheers!

  6. Dayno says:

    Blez, whilst I agree with the assessment of Rooney’s all round contribution..I think it’s hard to deny that he’s out of touch. Just look at his first touch, passing etc compared to last year.

    I think Fergie has recognised this and has managed to extract the most from him during this period by deploying him in a different manner and putting his great work ethic to best use. I think this is where Rooney differs to the majority of the others you mention..

    An out of touch Rooney or an out of touch Torres..I know who I’d take every single day of the week!

    Interesting article mate, what other metrics do you have in mind?

  7. Blez says:

    Dayno – I fully agree mate and I haven’t denied he is out of touch – in fact I said exactly that.

    Not sure I agree with your observations re: SAF… that could be the case, but personally I just think DB has earnt his spot.

    However, in our first crucial game in a long time he plumped for the 4-5-1 and Rooney as the spearhead…

    And came out of it smellling of roses!

  8. time tough says:

    Hi Blez,
    Let me start by saying my post was intended as a light hearted bit of banter rather than accusing you of any bias. Although I haven’t been posting for that long I think it’s fair to say I’m not a confrontational character, quite the opposite in fact. I apologise if you thought I was being flippant, it’s my fault for not being more lucid. Maybe the use of some emotions might help in the future. :-)

    Not intending to accuse you of any bias again, the peer group table percentages correctly state Rooney on 75% since 07/08 but the percentages on Torres are a little awry. Torres has completed 74% league games in the same period not 68% as stated, I think you’ve worked out Waynes stats based on 140 games and poor old Nandos on the full 4 seasons 152 games.

    As you went to the trouble of producing the percentages for appearences table for age 23 to 26, I thought I’d expand it using three of the examples who all started their career at 17. I realise they are all different ages, I’ve used Villa up to age 26, the same age as Torres and given Rooney an unlikey full 38 appearences to bring him up to 26 as well as assuming both players play this seasons remaining 12 games.

    Rooney 9 seasons from age 17 = 273 + 12 +38 = 323 appearences/85%

    Torres 10 seasons from age 17 = 314 +12 =326 appearences/85%

    Villa 10 seasons from age 17 = 289 appearences/72%

    I’m happy for everyone to draw their own conclusions.

    I don’t suppose you could get two more constrasting strikers than the remaining pair in that table, Shearer & Henry, one a combatitive warrior, the other streamlined for speed. Despite the marked difference in styles, both show impressive stats in the timeframe used as they approached their prime years, Henry 93% & Shearer 90%. After reading the addendum I expected to see both players maintaining a respectable figure, in or around those percentages for the next 5 years, what I found was a deterioration, Shearer 73% & Henry 73%. It would seem it makes little difference whether a striker is built for speed or not and impressive appearence stats in a four year window before a strike enters his prime are also no guarantee those appearences can be maintained. I’d also like to mention that in the big names 23 -26 table percentages, you state Drogba has 82% for that period, I believe it’s actually nearer to 72%.

    I won’t get too involved in the transfer value, I believe a player is only worth what a club are prepared to pay for his services, Torres could have went for £60 million or £40 million, doesn’t really amount to anything in my eyes.

    Cheers
    tt.

  9. Blez says:

    TT,

    First and foremost I was well aware you were trying to pull my leg!

    But I thought you raised a good challenge worthy of an answer.

    Amusingly I only included the data on Drogba and Torres to give some credibility to the figures for Berbatov and Rooney, by showing that such numbers are most consistent than you may realise at the top of the game.

    Didn’t expect Torres to end up as the focal point of on of my pieces again!

    Everyone certainly has a view on him. Let’s just thank our lucky stars Poll hasn’t turned up on this one yet!

    Thank you very much for spotting my typo in Torres’ data. Rather than not prorating his current season, I had actually included this year twice and therefore excluded his 33 games campaign from 2007/08.

    This has now been changed in the tables above and I agree with your figure of 74%.

    David Villa

    I don’t want this to seem like a bun fight in any way, but one thing I have to point out if that your comparison regarding Villa is unfair on the Spaniard.

    He simply did not play in his year 17 season? Since breaking into the Sporting Gijon side he has been one of the most consistent players in European football as far as injuries go.

    He has played 340 league games in the last ten years including this one, playing over 84% of his sides games in ten of the eleven season since he became a regular?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Villa#Club

    Far from being a poor comparable to Torres and Rooney, he is exactly what they should be striving for?

    As is the nature of stats, you can obviously present them however you like, but I think they way you have cut the cake on that one is a trifle (boom boom) unfair.

    Or have I possibly been “wikipedia’d” on this one?

    Henry & Shearer

    Very interesting points regarding Henry and Shearer.

    Both players bodies indeed let them down in some way during their careers. I was very surprised by Henry’s rate of decline and have often wondered how much of it was motivational.

    Shearer did wonderfully well to come back form the knee injuries and still perform at the elite level. A true great and possibly the last traditional English centre forward we will see.

    Didier Drogba

    My stats still support Drogba playing in 82% of his league games in the corresponding four seasons (34/35/26/29).

    Could be that a few of these we are cutting seasons a year apart sir.

    I was doing it based on birth date rather than a hard and fast opening day rule i.e. DD is born in March so I let him off being 27 for the last two months of a season.

    Again, maybe wikipedia has given me duff gen. Or possibly you missed Drogba’s club move during the 2001/02 season?

    Player value

    Again, I fully agree with your statement that things are worth what someone will pay for them.

    However, just when making financial investment decisions in the banking industry, trading shares, taking out an insurance policy or placing a bet on a football match, I am a huge believe that where data is available and you have a number of possible outcomes and expected values you can use a risk/reward assessment to determine a true value of something.

    Torres is ultimately worth £50 million is Roman believes he is.

    Roman may also believe that Phil Taylor is crap at darts. It doesn’t make it true.

    For me this is similar to when people judge the success of a football bet on the outcome rather than a price and risk assessment.

    I got Arsenal at 6/1 to win last night.

    Even if they lost 0-3 I was happy that was a wise investment, based on a wide ranging analysis and a number of assumptions and beliefs.

    Now, nobody knows if my rationale was correct or not.

    But in the long run the results will shine through as to whether or not you are making +EV decisions.

    And I am yet to see a single piece of evidence to convince me that Fernando Torres at £50 million is a +EV decision.

    And it is not really a case of “time will tell” as is commonly used – as irrespective of whether he plays 100 games or 300 games for Chelsea, the risl/reward profile of the deal doesn’t stack up given the evidence to hand at this point in time.

    Anyway, this is all just my opinion – I don’t expect everyone to agree with me on everything!

    Thanks for the ongoing contribution to the site – hopefully we can coax some more people into these debates going forwards..

    Cheers

  10. Poll says:

    Interesting that you should be concerned about me coming on here and defending Torres as a Reds fan.

    In fact I am firmly in your camp and believe that £50m is a ridiculous price to pay for Torres. My overriding belief (as I’ve mentioned before on here) is that football transfer market is currently in the midst of a speculative bubble. At some point this will all come crashing down and we won’t see these sort of numbers flying around for a good few years, as long as Merv doesn’t let inflation fly out of control (one of my biggest pet peeves is when football pundits start talking about that and fail to take into consideration inflation! Another being when they talk about absolute figures and not percentage increases, they are just not qualified to talk about money!).

    Anyway, rant over. Also onside with the whole injury thing. May be totally wrong, but I think Torres will have problems going forward. Some people are just born athletes (Roger Federer) and others struggle with the demands of professional sport (too many to mention, but Owen Hargreaves might have a few ideas).

    I’d love to know if Roman even got someone to run some numbers for him about the return they might expect out of Torres. My guess is that he didn’t and I think that is true of more than half the transfers out there. Sad that these considerations aren’t made, but until there are people with business brains taking control of football clubs we will continue to see such stupidity.

  11. time tough says:

    Blez,
    Me and my big mouth, I’ve managed to get myself involved in a debate about individual player stats, something that I really care little about.

    David Villa, the link you provide clearly shows he started his career as a 17 year old in 1999/00, playing 30 games for Gijon B, so I’ll stand by my original 74% in my last post.

    Drogba, happy to hold my hands up for this one, I did miss his club change in the year you mentioned and as a long standing Chelsea supporter, consider myself suitably chastised!

    I respect your opinion about player values and follow your reasoning, I very rarely stray into individual player analysis as I find the financial reward for such research limited compared to team analysis

    I was also on Arsenal last night, took all three home options in the HT/FT to level stakes and hit the jackpot with the A/H option resulting in a 31 point profit. Had Barca held on, I’d still be confident with the methods I use in finding value, which have & will reap rewards in the long run confirmed by my records showing a healthy profit in that particular market for a number of years.

    Nice exchange of views, looking forward to more in the future

    cheers

  12. Blez says:

    Wow TT, fantastic result on the Arsenal game.

    Well played sir. That puts my measly bet on Arsenal at 6/1 to shame.

    Before we wrap this one up, as I don’t want to sound like an anal bugger, but I think you have made the same mistake with Villa as you did with Drobga.

    The season that shows up as 1 game is the same season he played 35 for Gijon B.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Villa#Club

    To be a circa 75% player as you suggest you would be looking at around 28-29 games a season, based on a 38 game campaign…

    Villa had no seasons below 30 at any point in his career, and only two with less than 33.

    I think that is “clearly shown” in the link ;-) … So i’ll stand by my original post!

    He is out on the field every single game – far from a 74% rate….

    Joking aside, it is important that people challenge and scrutinise what I am saying.

    Without it my typo in the Torres numbers would have gone unnoticed and I hate leaving factual errors in my work.

    Here’s to a profitable weekend coming up!

    Cheers

  13. time tough says:

    Just checked the link again and have no problems saying you’re correct in the David Villa stats, ………..now you know why I don’t relish analysing individual players stats! Not that I’m using that as an excuse, like yourself I’m happy to have my stats corrected.

    Looking forward to your next piece.

    cheers

  14. Benjy says:

    Quality article and quality blog! I have just been introduced to this site, and as a deep thinking footy fan (Spurs) am intrigued by the fresh perspective you offer in analysing the latest stories and performances. Keep it up!

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